An Unexpected Discussion

[adderslj]

Last Saturday night, over dinner in the bar of our hotel, Lorna and I had a discussion I never thought I would have. We talked about emigrating. In particular, we talked about moving to the US. (Lorna is a US Citizen, with long-term permission to reside in the UK. She's technically dual nationality.)

People who have known me for a long while will probably be surprised by this. I love Britain and have always been proud to be British, However, I'm seriously beginning to wonder if the Britain I love exists any more. As I watch gun crime spiral, social security abuse increase and any sense of pride in the UK vanish, I start to wonder "why?"

Why do I stay? Why do I love this country? Why do we put up with this? More and more of my friends grow frustrated with the way the tax money they've worked hard to earn is being spent. They grow more and more frustrated with politicians who seems unable to do anything but chase short-term popularity or line their own pockets. When you start missing Margaret Thatcher, you know something is deeply wrong.

Our Government seems not to have the guts to deal with growing crime, fraud, managerial incompetence within the public services and immigration. We seem unable to make a judgment about what is right and wrong, and make decisions based on practical expediency rather than moral standards or any degree of political philosophy. Society is breaking down because nobody thinks in term of society any more. They merely think in terms of their own pleasure and convenience. That doesn't work in the long-term, though. If you put no work into maintaining the society that facilitates your own pleasure and convenience, you'll soon find that your ability to achieve them is compromised.

Do I want to sit through that painful process, or would I rather be somewhere that has already found some answers to these problems?

Don't get me wrong, I think America has some serious problems. However, I think, as a society, it seems to be fundamentally more honest than the UK at the moment. Yes, Americans are extremely interested in themselves and their own pleasure, but they are open about it and, wonder of wonders, they seem to love their country for giving them the freedom to pursue their own happiness. More, they seem to be happy to fight to protect those liberties.

It was only a discussion. We're very far from making any form of decision. But, for the first time, the option is on the table.

Comments

[tenzil.livejournal.com]

The prospect of someone moving to the US because gun crime at home has gotten too bad is like a punch right in the Irony Kidneys. :-)

Re:

[adders.livejournal.com]

Well, there's also the "we could have a house twice the size for half the money" issue...

[inscrutable.livejournal.com]

OK, one question. You'd move away from Britain because you dislike the rising crime and change in culture, and you'd move here?? Have you seen our crime and culture and the current administration's crusade against personal freedom? While the US is nowhere near as bad a place to live as say Afghanastan or Zimbabwe or Cambodia or something, it seems to me that you're saying "Well, I dislike the X, Y and Z that's here. I think I'll move somewhere with more X, Y and Z."

Re:

[adders.livejournal.com]

I think I'm failing to make myself clear. It's more a case of "if two places have identical problems X, Y and Z, but one has a better standard of living and more opportunities, which should I choose?" The answer tends towards the self-evident.

[inscrutable.livejournal.com]

Hmmm... that one does make a bit more sense. I'd still say that our X, Y and Z is bigger than your X, Y and Z. But then I've been conditioned to argue that we have more of anything than other people do.

Re:

[adders.livejournal.com]

You more have more crime than the UK, but you also have better self-defence rights (see my later post). You certyainly have fewer dole scroungers, because your social security system is so much less forgiving...

[maliszew.livejournal.com]

I've got to confess the stories I've been reading lately about both the crime rates and charging of individuals who protect themselves in Britain have surprised and appalled me. I'm not much of a gun nut, despite being an American, but I can't imagine a place where the fear of guns is so great that the government would treat a man who shoots an intruder into his home as a criminal no different -- or even worse -- than the burglar himself. Canada is going this way too, which is one of the many reasons I can't stomach the thought of staying here much longer. That and the candy is no good. :)

[adders.livejournal.com]

Ah, yes, well, one significant argument against the US is that Lorna would have to have decent tea imported from England. :-)

[maliszew.livejournal.com]

If you pick the right city, I'll bet that won't be a problem. Again, America has its problems, but lack of choice in consumer goods is not one of them.

[adders.livejournal.com]

When Lorna was over in the US for the wedding of one of her godfather's children, she had the following conversation:

"What tea would you like?"
"Oh, Assam if you have it, Earl Grey if not."
"Just Decaff or Regular here, honey."

Her expectation is coloured by one too many experiences like that.

[maliszew.livejournal.com]

What Godforsaken city was this? I could find Earl Grey in my local grocery store in Baltimore right next to the Lipton's and Red Rose. They had a whole range of Twinings teas, in fact. And Baltimore is no great cultural center. I can't imagine a place like Boston or New York or wherever would have less a selection.

Re:

[adders.livejournal.com]

Believe it or not, it was New York. Lorna's godfather is a very weathly man, so perhaps the availability of a wide selection of teas has yet to penetrate the upper echelons of New York party catering.

[maliszew.livejournal.com]

Wow. That's just weird. I cannot explain why that should be so. *shrugs* Move to Baltimore then. :) It'd give me an excuse to move back.

[magentamom.livejournal.com]

Well, it's in bags, which I know isn't quite right, but I don't have any trouble finding Earl Gray (or Lady Gray, English Breakfast or Irish Breakfast, whatever I'm in the mood for). Twinings is readily available on the grocery shelves at least in metropolitan areas, honest. ;)

In my more tea snooty stages of life, I also have had little issue with finding loose tea at speciality stores. I'm just too lazy nowadays. I've also lost the teaball that Blue's sister gave us.

Hmmm. You know, Earl Gray might be just the thing right now for my sick tummy.

[aquamarcia.livejournal.com]

We'd love to have you and Lorna here in Portland, should you decide to move to the US. And I know where you can get good tea (and coffee and beer, too).

[trekhead.livejournal.com]

DON'T DO IT MAN!!!

Not that I wouldn't like to have another friend around the U.S., but the U.S. is a festering hellhole these days. Didja know that under the modifications to FISA by the USA PATRIOT act, the FBI can wiretap anyone and you can't even find out who ordered the tap or approved it, and the Supreme Court says that it has no jurisdiction to look into the case?

Jess.

[point5b.livejournal.com]

Jess,

Easy, guy. The US Supreme Court hasn't so much as addressed any part of USA PATRIOT. No case has gotten that far, though the Hamid and Padilla cases are on their way. Furthermore, he's coming the UK, Land of Surveillance. A country where the government proudly puts up scary, Orwellian posters about this fact.

Speaking as a civil liberties freak, the possibility that the FBI might get the insane idea that he's a terrorist and tap his phone strikes me as a far lesser invasion of his privacy.

[gwenix.livejournal.com]

Someone I know works in the Homeland Security department.

One day he gets on our IRC channel and pages a friend.

"Hey boo, you drive a red spitfire, right?"

"yah."

"did you leave at exactly 8:37 this morning?"

"doo, you're scaring me."

"wanna see the satellite footage?"

My channel was lauding this as the funniest thing to ever happen last night. Except me. I am very scared.

[point5b.livejournal.com]

Frankly, even it it's not just a gag (because, you know, spy satellite use is just a bit restricted, and pointing one at a friend's house for a laugh is just a bit harder to do than say - and someone releasing Patriot Games-esque video footage from a US spy satellite is on his way to Leavenworth if it's real)...big deal!

I'll take dealing with a government that can (if it really wants to) look down into my mom's walled-in garden over dealing with a government that tries to put surveillance cameras on every streetcorner...and yet strangely fails to prevent rampant crime with this attempted omniscience.

[gwenix.livejournal.com]

well, the scary thing is that he wasn't trying to watch our friend leave his house... he just happened to look at the screen boo was on at that moment.

[point5b.livejournal.com]

I can only say 1)that you'd be welcome here in my book and 2) you have my very real condolences that things have gotten so bad, there.

[ladyjestyr.livejournal.com]

Have you looked at the problem of a visa for yourself? I'm not sure about the visa conditions for partners in your situation, but I do know that a resident's visa for a non-American in the process of marrying a US-resident US citizen is not that easy to get. (There went my plan to be a mail-order bride.)

[gwenix.livejournal.com]

http://www.usais.org/visas.htm

more specifically:

http://www.usais.org/fiancevisas.htm

If your fiancé(e) is not a citizen of the United States and you plan to get married in the United States, then you must file a petition with INS on behalf of your fiancé(e). After the petition is approved, your fiancé(e) must obtain a visa issued at a U.S. Embassy or consulate abroad. The marriage must take place within 90 days of your fiancé(e) entering the United States.

[adders.livejournal.com]

We wouldn't be moving until Lorna and I were married. Indeed, we'll have been hitched for over a year by the time we do it, if we ever do.

[ladyjestyr.livejournal.com]

I figured as much - are you then automatically guaranteed to get a visa/residency?

[adders.livejournal.com]

Pretty much:

http://www.usais.org/kvisas.htm