Trying to be even-handed

[adderslj]

People who followed yesterday's debate on political tribalism, and who don't have eyebeams as a friend, might want to swing by his journal and check out a post explaining why he unfriended me.

The only comment I can make, really, is that he's still responding to what he thinks I said and his expectations of my attitudes, rather that what I actually believe. It's a fascinating rebuttal he's posted - but it's a rebuttal of something else entirely. He also seems to remain unaware that accusing me of having a hidden agenda, and a lack of comprehension of other people's attitudes could be considered "various snide insults" all by themselves, or, at the very least, extremely patronising and insulting.

It's a shame, but if people will only engage with what they assume your "hidden message" is, then any meaningful discussion is impossible. I also find the decision to lay out an attack on my assumed position without direct facility for reply revealing.

Ah well, go check it out, and form your own opinions based on the evidence, rather than making the evidence fit your opinions. That's all I was advocating anyway. I mean, perhaps the evidence does show that I was being a complete ass, and I'm just too close to see it. :-)

That's all I've got to say on that subject.

Comments

[zamiel.livejournal.com]

The cynic in me wonders what either side has to gain by making it into public drama, frankly. I got quite enough of that in high school, please and thank you. I'm 32 frickin' years old, and I'm not likely to start enjoying drama that doesn't involve a DD in a bikini any day soon.

That said, I'll point out that you and I are pretty much opposite ends of the political spectrum and I've no hesitation in telling you I think you're a fuckin' wackjob, when I think you are, in fact, so being. But I haven't unfrinded you.

I unfriended eyebeams a year or more ago.

See, I don't stop reading what you have to say just because I disagree with you. I stop reading what you have to say when it makes me want to tie you down and push leeches under your eyelids while I castrate you with a dirty, dull knife for the good of the species.

This probably says something.

[adders.livejournal.com]

The cynic in me wonders what either side has to gain by making it into public drama,

Nothing. Public debate is good. Public drama is just a waste of time. I dislike debates that turn into drama, but all too often, that's life.

That said, I'll point out that you and I are pretty much opposite ends of the political spectrum

I dunno. I've seen times when we're pretty closely in alignment, and others where we're directly opposed.

But I haven't unfrinded you.

I did unfriend you, during one of my periodic "purge the friends list, it's taking too long to read" phases, and you were mostly posting about games stuff which I wasn't interested in at the time. I must swing by and see what you're up to now.

See, I don't stop reading what you have to say just because I disagree with you. I stop reading what you have to say when it makes me want to tie you down and push leeches under your eyelids while I castrate you with a dirty, dull knife for the good of the species.

Um, now that's probably a healthy atittude. More or less. Apart from the bit about the leeches, probably.

[zamiel.livejournal.com]

Yeah, well, sometimes trimming for length is a good thing. I do that without rancor or announcement a good deal of the time. Sometimes, you just have to prune and surf back later.

Mind you, I'm still on about the games stuff with just the occasional political rant bits. I'm afraid the current political climate is too hand-wringy for a barbarian gunslinger type like myself.

[adders.livejournal.com]

Ah, but you're writing about the latest MMoRPGs, which I find socially interesting, and so you're back on the friends page.

[fraserspeirs.livejournal.com]

Oooh! He mentioned Torquemada - that's another opportunity to exercise Speirs' Law (http://www.livejournal.com/users/fraserspeirs/626652.html)!

[maliszew.livejournal.com]

All I can say, Adam, is that if you're a shithead, then you're in good company.

[melindadansky.livejournal.com]

See earlier comment about pathelogical needs to categorize people. It may be the dominant point of view. That doesn't make it right.

[slog.livejournal.com]

one thing too:

He is from Canada, you are from Britain.

Yes, you both speak and write English.

Not necessarily with the same intonation and inclination.

I have noticed that things I hear and read from plexq and other Brits can sometimes be misconstrued as insults. I know its not meant, so I don't take it personally (anymore). I am sure the vice versa is true.

I know that when first talking with some British buddies I felt like I was being insulted, blew up, then thought about it.

Just a thought. And, you're a right bastard. Meant in the best way possible. :-)

[doctorcaligari.livejournal.com]

I don't know if this is worth pointing out, but my overall experience with both sides of the political spectrum (noting first of all that at least over here, there is very rarely a 'middle' that translates to anything but 'More interested in last episode of CSI than in anything political') is that very, very few people bother to argue unless they are pushing either an overt or an ulterior agenda. Relatively few people enjoy arguing for the respectful exchange of differing ideas. Most have something to prove. Some loudly claim to have no bias despite all evidence to the contrary. Some are exceedingly subtle and clever at twisting language to hide their biases.

I'm not going to defend eyebeams since I'm sure he's perfectly capable of defending himself, but it is possible that there are many folks out there who, because of their past experience with the sorts of people I describe above, just aren't going to be capable of believing that you haven't secretly chosen a "side," no matter how much you protest to the contrary.

[adders.livejournal.com]

I think that's at the heart of the matter, actually. It's not that I haven't "chosen a side", it's that the side, or my position within the side can change as new evidence or arguments come my way.

You see, assuming that I'm in some nebulous "middle" simply because I don't like the way people nail their flags to particular masts and never take 'em down again, is actually just an attempt to categorise me: "Ah-ha. I have the box to put Adam in now. I don't need to bother paying close attention."

Eyebeams reacted to what I said in the way that he did, because he assumed (incorrectly) I was in the pro-war box, even though I carefully structured my original post to point out that I wasn't. He then proceeded to ignore facts, and twist what I was saying, to make that original assessment continue to stand up. In short, he had to resort to telling me that he knew better what I thought than he did to continue to justify his own position.

And that's why I dislike political tribalism. Rather than reassess his view of me, he demonised and dropped me.

[gwenix.livejournal.com]

Oh for crying out loud. You're both reading too much into it.

*applies head to desk liberally*

(Yes, of course I was pointed here, hence the late comment.)